Nick Stevens and I both grew up in Richardson, Texas. We went to elementary, junior high, and high school together, and were friends for most of that time. We hung out the most in high school, but less so after that, as Nick went to The University of North Texas in Denton, and I moved to Austin to go to UT.

After graduating, Nick moved with his girlfriend (now wife) Kristine to Sweden, where they have been since. I have visited them twice there. The first time, in 2005, I was vegan. The second time, in 2008, I was not. But during that more recent visit, I was surprised to learn that after my visit in 2005, Nick had experimented with veganism.

The experiment failed, which is why Nick is my next Interview With An Ex-Vegan.

Let Them Eat Meat: I remember visiting you and my brother in New York, some time before I moved here, I think in 2000. I was sick and having trouble keeping up with you as you walked briskly around the city, looking for a cheap watch. You told me I was falling behind because I wasn’t getting enough protein as a vegan. Besides that, I don’t remember you ever critiquing my diet. What did you think about my being vegan over the years?

Nick Stevens: I actually thought you were making a very healthy choice. Despite the fact that it made you seem physically less capable, I believed your “clean” diet would end up enabling you to live a longer and healthier life. By healthier life, I mean one that would be less plagued by disease or sicknesses.

LTEM: When I visited you in Stockholm in late Spring of ’05, you weren’t a vegan. But later you told me that at some point after I left, you tried it for a while. What inspired you?

Nick: Your devotion to you diet, and that you made an effort to cook interesting meals. You seemed to base your food choices on factual information. I was also inspired by the idea of living a life in harmony with animals. Or basically found the idea of not having to kill animals to survive and be healthy interesting philosophically.

LTEM: Your wife Kristine is a vegetarian. How did she react when you went vegan?

Nick: She seemed very happy. Actually, it was just the animal issue, she doesn’t eat meat because she doesn’t feel it is morally right to kill animals for food.

LTEM: How did you feel (physically and mentally) after you cut meat and dairy out of your diet?

Nick: I had a lot of cravings at first. I felt hungry a lot in the beginning. But at the same time, I felt good about myself conceptually. So mentally I was peaceful, because I was not taking part in the raising and slaughtering of animals, which I still feel is taken for granted by modern society. All in all, I have to say that I felt quite okay, but my physique didn’t seem to look any better than before.

LTEM: What milk replacement did you prefer?

Nick: I prefered oat milk, and I contiued to enjoy it, until you helped me to discover the prehistoric diet.

LTEM: Were you a purity vegan? Would you avoid anything that had even the slightest amount of animal product in it?

Nick: Yes, at first, but I found myself making exceptions after a period of time.

LTEM: How is it being vegan in Sweden?

Nick: It is quite difficult. Most people that eat fringe diets are vegetarian here. Most vegetarians (or so they call themselves) eat at least fish, some even eat chicken. They primarily abstain from pork and beef.

LTEM: Besides Kristine, did you have any vegan-type “support” in Sweden?

Nick: No one at all at the time.

LTEM: Did your friends or family members pressure you to eat animal products?

Nick: Yes, not hard pressure, but they definitely seemed to be confused and want to jest about it every time food came up.

LTEM: Were you ever rude about refusing non-vegan food?

Nick: No. After a period of time I decided that if I was offered something out of kindness, then I would still eat it as a respectful gesture.

LTEM: Did you do or think anything particularly absurd as a vegan?

Nick: “What can I do tonight with beans?”

LTEM: Did you eat mock meats?

Nick: At the time I ate a lot of Quorn (mushroom protein) meats. Although I tried to make all of my food from the raw ingredients, sometimes I had to take the easy way out to save time. Now, I very rarely eat anything prefabricated.

LTEM: Oh, shit, Nick, Quorn has egg whites in it! Does this mean you were technically never vegan?

Nick: I got my information a little crossed. I started eating A LOT of Quorn meats when I transitioned into regular vegetarianism. I was getting that time mixed up with my vegan period. So that means, after you left, I was pure vegan for about three to three and a half months, and then I was a pure vegetarian for about six months. After that, I lasted three more months as a “vegetarian” who also ate fish and seafood.

I was definitely vegan for a period, and I did not eat any meat substitutes during that time — only beans, veggies, root veggies, rice, nuts, fruit and so on. On a side note, I also fruit-fasted for a period of two days. This was something you told me about years ago. I got real hungry at first, but then after the first day the cravings subsided and I felt very alert. In the end, when I ate regular food again, it was like a head rush - I almost felt like I would keel over.

LTEM: To most vegans, three months isn’t long enough for your veganism to even count. In retrospect, would you say that you’ve never actually been vegan?

Nick: In retrospect I would say that I tried it and ultimately decided it wasn’t the right choice for me.

LTEM: Could you have tried harder?

Nick: Yes, I could have stuck with it. I more or less copped out for lack of inspiration.

LTEM: What did you use to ease out of veganism?

Nick: Well, I started with milk and cheese. Then I went to eggs. And finally introduced fish.

LTEM: How did you feel when you started eating meat again?

Nick: I felt more satisfied, and I would stay less hungry for a longer period of time.

LTEM: Did non-vegans suddenly see you as a fellow human being again?

Nick: Yes, but it was more like I was never a vegan at all. On the other hand, there were a few people who NEVER would remember that I was vegan or vegetarian when I was one, but then all of a sudden up to a half of a year later those people still believed that I was vegetarian.

LTEM: Sounds like they need time for information to sink in. Why do meat eaters often find veganism so obnoxious?

Nick: It is the pickiness of the vegan eaters. They can’t find something to their liking at most places. It makes it difficult to go eat at a restaurant, and the meat eaters always have to cater to the vegan’s needs.

LTEM: Did you find that to be the case the first time I visited you in Stockholm?

Nick: No. When you visited, I didn’t see you as picky, since you had reasoning behind what you ate, and you had quite a broad array of things you ate within your acceptable range of foods. You seemed to have no problems finding things to eat when we were out. I found it interesting to try to eat the way you did and see what the result would be.

LTEM: Did I seem to look noticeably healthier to you or Kristine when I visited Stockholm the second time, as a non-vegan, as opposed to the first, as a vegan?

Nick: You seemed to have gotten better looking. I think Kristine even mentioned that she thought you were handsome or cute or something to that effect. So, I guess that means you must have appeared healthier.

LTEM: Did you appreciate meat more after your vegan stint?

Nick: No. I appreciated vegans and vegetarians that are in good physical shape more.

LTEM: “For something to live, something else must die.” Is this an unfortunate flaw in the world?

Nick: Well, I don’t think that something HAS TO die so something else can live. That sounds awfully black and white, and probably how a lot of regular Americans feel about their meat eating. But death is something that happens for all living things eventually. I would sooner adhere to a philosophy of living without hurting any other living thing. I am sure you can find plenty of gray terrain in there.

LTEM: Is veganism an attempt to avoid the reality of death and create meaning?

Nick: Yes, in some sense probably it is. But I would say not so much as avoid, but actively attempt to change that reality. I do think that if society in general gave more respect to nature and life, we would live in a different and better world.

I mean, I don’t think that most vegans would be vegans if it weren’t for the type of excess that our system of life has given way to. The way that everything is mass-produced to fill the shelves at Walmart super stores, etcetera. Simply put, I don’t think that the quality of the animals’ lives that go into making ready-fried chicken fried steak patties is a very natural reality.

LTEM: Nor are chicken fried steaks themselves much of a natural reality. But that’s probably true. One of the big vegan gripes is how detached we are from food production, and that people don’t think about where their food comes from at all. Of course, vegans believe that anyone who does think about it must then logically become vegan. By the way, my brother is still vegan. How do you think he would feel about this blog?

Nick: He would probably feel a bit defensive. From what I saw on your blog, you are quite aggressive in your calling out of vegans. I actually think that they are doing a positive thing, despite the fact that I do believe it is not as healthy or as natural for human beings as the prehistoric diet.

LTEM: Speaking of the prehistoric diet, how did the “primal” way go for you?

Nick: The caveman diet went very well. I slipped up and fell back into eating from the agricultural age again, though, after four months. In the first two weeks as I cut out all the grains and starches, and even cut out dairy, I was often very light headed, but then it subsided and I started to feel very energetic and in control. I was no longer beholden to food. Essentially I felt like a very efficient machine. My body also started to instantly look more muscular and developed within only a month.

I plan on going back to the primal diet as soon as I can inspire myself to do it again. I went back on it for a month, but had trouble holding to the diet. It’s very difficult to be primal when you live with a vegetarian — Kristine always needs some type of carbohydrate to help fill her up, since she doesn’t get the protein that I get. She also eats a lot of Quorn meats and I never touch those anymore — especially when I was primal — due to the gluten and potato starches and whatever else they contain.

LTEM: What do you miss about being vegan?

Nick: Telling people that I was vegan, but that’s it.