Tristan Jones is friends with Colin Fuller, the ex-vegan I interviewed last week. I haven’t really met Tristan (though we were in the same vicinity once), so pretty much all I know about him is what he says in this interview. The only introduction I will give, then, is that Tristan has made “Let Them Eat Meat” history by being the first ex-vegan I have interviewed who hasn’t become a regular meat eater. He is now a lacto-ovo vegetarian.
Let Them Eat Meat: What got you into veganism?
Tristan Jones: I spent my years in college concerned with eating a really healthy diet — only whole grains, mostly vegetables. After I graduated, I decided to be vegetarian again for environmental reasons (raising animals for meat is tremendously more inefficient and requires significantly more landbase and resources per calorie than vegetables, nuts, or beans). After about a year of running the vegetarian gamut — from pescetarian to strict vegetarian — I decided to become vegan.
I had some very dedicated vegan friends, both animal liberationists and straight-edgers, and they were a community I felt very comfortable in. They made it easy to transition to veganism. I figured, hey, if I’m already halfway there I might as well not make any (what seemed at the time) arbitrary decisions between what animal products I would and wouldn’t eat. So I stopped eating eggs and cheese and honey. It was fun, being part of the vegan community.
How long were you vegan?
I was vegan for a little over seven months.
Vegans often say they feel better once they go vegan. Was that the case with you?
In some ways yes, in some ways no. Dairy kicks up your mucous production, so quitting dairy made me feel cleaner. Getting my protein from nuts and beans felt great. The worst feeling about being vegan was being so limited in what I could eat outside of my home, and not having the money to really do that.
Were you a purity vegan?
I would avoid anything with the tiniest animal product — from whey to casein — but I was okay with eating off of surfaces/eating out of pots that had meat in them at some point. It wasn’t such a big deal to me, since I was still holding to the spirit of veganism.
In retrospect, does anything seem absurd about veganism?
I think the idea that veganism is a diet that is universally applicable to everyone, all over the world. There are serious economic and cultural realities that veganism likes to gloss over. Not everyone has access to earth balance or nutritional yeast. Efforts by groups like peta to boycott entire nations — like Korea — because of some specialized dietary habits is ignorant at best, and racist at worst.
A lot of vegans openly hate peta and think that peta harms the vegan cause by making vegans look bad. Were you in the anti-peta camp as a vegan?
Yeah, the more I think about it, I have to say “absolutely.” I am sort of opposed to a lot of their tactics and ideology on a bunch of different grounds. I think it’s unfortunate that a lot of people automatically correlate veganism to peta. I think peta wants it that way.
Were you ever rude about refusing non-vegan food?
No, but I knew a lot of vegans who were. I always tried to be really sensitive to other people’s diets, because mine was such a marginal one. I was hoping that in being kind to omnivores regarding their different diet, they would be kind to mine as well, and make me feel less marginalized. That wasn’t my experience, and over time I became very resentful and bitter whenever an omnivore made judgments on who I was simply because I was vegan. It was awful.
Did you judge them in return?
No, I didn’t. I really think the best one can do, when one feels that they are acting ethically, is to be an example or inspiration or to help enable others to follow those same ethics. Non-vegans weren’t immoral, they were just different people, but if they wanted to get on board with what I thought was the most ethical diet, then I’d help them achieve that.
When you were vegan, did you think you would ever touch an animal product again?
Yeah, I thought I’d be vegan forever (though admittedly, I still had openness to the idea of eating meat I’d raised myself, someday, when I’d moved back onto a farm).
Did you suddenly quit being vegan, or did you psychologically ease into it for a while?
I was already considering giving it up. I had issues with the industrial processes, or corporatization of my diet. I couldn’t have been a healthy vegan without nutritional yeast or supplements, and I didn’t want to give control of my body over to corporations.
Most vegans do rely on fake meats, various industrial extracts, and vitamin supplements, both for taste and nutrition. Does all the scientific manipulation required suggest that humans aren’t meant to be vegan?
I want to preface my answer by saying that I think a lot of what people argue humans are “meant to be” is ridiculous — we have the ability to reason and act ethically against aspects of our natures considered otherwise violent. I don’t think that saying “veganism does not correlate to human nature/biology” is an appropriate reason to criticize or leave veganism, because driving cars and making films and living in a democracy and developing an ethic isn’t a biological fact of human existence, either. I think humans are also not “meant” to eat the amounts of meat (or food, generally) that we do.
That being said, I don’t know that veganism can be divorced from industry. When you get down to pure nutrition, a vegan diet free of supplements really can’t provide enough B12 for a vegan to be healthy and strong. If you’re comfortable with having to rely on supplements (and if you’re approaching veganism from an animal-rights perspective) then I think veganism can work quite well for some people — but not for me, personally. People like fake meats because they taste good and it makes the transition from omnivorous to veg*an really easy. Unfortunately, soy really isn’t that good for you.
My opposition to the necessity of industry and science in the production of foods and supplements is part of a political/environmentalist ethic that I take very seriously, and is not unreasonable, either. And that’s why I left, ultimately. Needing supplements that are produced and shipped industrially is carbon-intensive. Most of the things one would need to have a robust and nutritional vegan diet aren’t locally produced, and can’t be produced at home. My ethics incorporate a lot of biocentrist environmentalism and DIY.
Did anyone seem to think you looked healthier after eating animal products again?
No, definitely not. In fact I think I was healthier back then than I am now. The foundation for my diet was always maintaining all aspects of nutrition — iron, B-vitamins, folic acid, etc — so I was never an unhealthy vegan. Who knows if that would have been the case if I’d kept it up for years.
Did anything specific happen that caused you to make the switch?
I started dating a girl who was omni and she ate a lot of sausage and cheese. Being vegetarian seemed like a good compromise — it was a small compromise, but not a complete sell-out.
Did you think about trying to get her to become a vegan?
I considered it; she offered to go vegan for a month, to test herself. But like I said, I was already considering leaving veganism. It was a convenient way to leave the diet. Still, most of the cooking I would do for her would still be vegan — actually, a lot of the food I cook for myself today is still vegan, just supplemented by eggs and cheese.
What was the first thing you ate as a non-vegan?
Cheese, mang. A really tangy hard cheese my girlfriend got at Whole Foods, of all places.
How did you break the news to your vegan friends?
They were a little disappointed, but we still love each other and I have tremendous respect for the fact that they’ve stuck with their veganisms — passionately — in a way I didn’t. They were glad I wasn’t eating meat, but I guess that’s not a big surprise.
Who quit veganism first — you or Colin?
I think I stopped being vegan before Colin. When I quit, Colin seemed disappointed. In some ways I’m afraid it kickstarted his process of moving away from veganism. Like I said, I have crazy respect for people that keep to their ideals — dietary or otherwise — and to think I contributed to other people leaving what they once so passionately believed in makes me feel pretty remorseful. I don’t think I disregarded my own ideals because they’re rooted in anti-industrialism and hierarchy, but I know some people would disagree with me in some pretty important ways.
Why haven’t you gone all the way back to eating meat?
Meat still puts tremendous strains on the environment. Whether it’s the inputs of water and fuel per calorie of meat or the deforestation of places in the developing world for grazing land, meat has really important consequences that I can’t morally ignore.
I also have ethical considerations for the rights of animals, but I don’t delude myself into thinking that eggs can’t be taken from happy chickens; I’m from a farm, after all, and we have very happy chickens. They’re healthy. Those are the eggs I want, not from chickens with clipped beaks trapped in tiny cages.
Do you think you ever will have meat again?
Oh, I have! I’m especially fond of the lamb my parents raise down in Virginia. I’ve known some of those sheep personally so I have fewer ethical qualms about eating them than grain-fed feedlot beef from the Keyfood. I have bites of friend’s food every now and again, but I don’t think I’m missing much.
Some vegans say that because they cannot kill an animal themselves, they will not eat animals. Would you be able to kill one of the lambs on your parents’ farm?
That’s a really difficult question. I have never killed one of the sheep on my farm — though I’ve consumed them. I’ve handled their dead bodies. We have them butchered by a local farmer, a friend. I think this is something that I will inevitably have to do if I’m going to feel justified in eating meat, even if only occasionally. Perhaps I should abstain until then.
No, no, I was just asking! Maybe this will help you feel more justified. A book called The Vegetarian Myth argues that killing a wild or grass-fed animal causes less death than eating a plate of brown rice, because of all the ecological damage that agriculture causes.
Agriculture causes a lot of ecological damage regardless of whether it’s for livestock or for vegetables. But remember, my main ethic has never been an animal-rights ethic, but rather an environmentalist one, so the argument that grass-fed kills fewer creatures is moot for the sake of my argument. Livestock requires an immense amount of grazing land, especially for beef. It takes 1,000-2,000 liters of water to produce 1kg of wheat; it requires 10,000-13,000 liters of water to produce 1kg of beef.
Fifty-six million acres of land in the US produce hay for livestock yet only four million acres produce vegetables for human consumption. The amazon rainforest is being deforested for grazing land. Cattle produce significantly more methane than vegetables (though rice is a main contributor to greenhouse gases).
Industrial processes of slaughter require the shipment of cattle to feedlots and a reliance on feeding cattle grain, which is unhealthy for them and requires the corporatization of the food chain by really atrocious agribusiness like Cargill and Monsanto. Our food supply in America is really fucked up from the bottom to the top, and our really heavy reliance on meat and corn and soybeans for feed is really just one component of that.
But couldn’t you use those same statistics against eating dairy? Or in favor of eating grass-fed beef from a local farm?
I’ve thought about whether or not I should be eating cheese, but I think the reality is that much more land is being deforested/degraded for meat-specific consumption, especially as developing nations like China and Brazil increase the demand for meat. (As an aside, biofuels also contribute to the same deforestation I was talking about).
Dairy farms are relatively small-scale operations where most of the milking is done on-site. Beef farms require that industrial, centralized system of feedlots and grain delivery. I know both small-scale beef farmers and small-scale dairy farmers, and their operations are just worlds apart.
So again, I really believe that eating local is important; I think there’s something really important in at least knowing where your food comes from. The issue of grain-fed vs. grass-fed is that I do believe animals should be free to live according to their natures, and cattle are ruminants; they don’t eat grain, they eat grass. That is a biological fact of a cow, and I think it’s unethical to eat meat that denies cows that nature.
When you also consider how many antibiotics it takes just to keep those cows alive and functioning on feedlots until they move to the slaughterhouse, it makes a compelling case against non-local, non-grass-fed beef. And this doesn’t even begin to discuss the effects of industrial beef on human health.
I suppose within my framework of ethics I could still eat meat, but I have some issues with the intrinsic nature of the exchange of capital for animal meat. If I knew the farmer, like I know my parents, and perhaps knew the animal, then I would be comfortable eating that meat. I feel like if I am going to take the life of another animal for my own sustenance, then I owe it to that animal to at least know who raised it, how it was raised, and whether or not it was treated humanely — as you can guess, this really severely limits my options.
Also consider that I don’t think meat more than a couple times a week is that good for you, and it just becomes easiest to identify as a vegetarian, at least for as long as I live in New York City.
Vegans often ridicule the idea of “happy meat,” because they say that even if the animals are raised in good conditions, it is immoral that they must meet their demise at the hands of humans. Do you think veganism helps or harms the cause of getting rid of factory farms and providing more local/organic/grass-fed alternatives?
Veganism is always questioning the legitimacy of the ethics of animal welfare (if we kill humanely, it is still appropriate to consume animal products?) on the grounds that it’s a half-assed argument and that animal rights (correlating to veganism) is the conclusion of any thorough ethical exploration of the relationship between humans and animals. I think there’s a lot of merit in that. I just think that our diets exist in more contexts/dimensions than only the relationship between people and animals.
I don’t think the ideal of an entirely vegan society is realistic, so local/organic/grass-fed alternatives are always going to exist, even as vegans decry those practices. If anything, it’s important that there are those willing to challenge the practices of meat-raising, in whatever form, to keep all of us on our toes and to continuously question what we are doing, why we are doing it, and how we are doing it.
Do you miss anything about veganism?
I do miss the community, and the fun of discovering new foods and cooking methods I wouldn’t have otherwise known about. Veganism taught me a lot, though, especially about considering where my food is coming from, from “farm-to-fork.” I ran across a quote the other day — “you need to eat food that has a story behind it that you can be proud of.” Being vegan helped me to really ask where the things I am eating are coming from, and that’s something I always loved about it.
