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"Though, I am still hurt every time I see a very close friend eat meat/dairy just because a) I love them b) they are my friends because I respect so much about them c) they are very well aware of all the arguments for veganism/against the opposite and so d) I battle to reconcile my love & respect for them with my disdain for and utter incomprehension of their behaviour."
Jkaska

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Should Vegans Have a Blood-Drenched Wedding?

bloodybride

It’s amazing how much talk of vegan weddings Chelsea Clinton’s non-vegan wedding generated.

Since The New York Times, Gawker, Jezebel, Feministe and Vegansaurus! gave their respective takes, a lot of people have been asking me “What does Let Them Eat Meat think about vegan weddings?” Well, the blog has changed over time so I can’t speak for the entire thing, but I can tell you what it thinks now.  

Let them be vegan!

Sure, if I’m at a wedding, I’d rather the reception have meat. But if two vegans are getting married, I expect it won’t. And I can understand why it wouldn’t. 

As a young vegan with Hollywood dreams, I thought I’d force my cast and crew to eat vegan food while they were on set. Of course I expected to have a vegan wedding. Realistically I might have compromised if I’d married an omni, but it would have been a major issue for me. 

Now that I eat meat I can see the other side of it. Vegans believe “vegan food is for everyone” because few people have serious moral qualms with fruits and vegetables. To vegan thinking, then, meat is divisive while vegan food is inclusive. Vegans expect meat eaters to enjoy vegan food as much as they do, not realizing that Morningstar Farms and Daiya have aided and abetted a collapse in their culinary standards. Go to NYC’s Veggie Conquest if you want to see how easy to please vegans are. It’s more of a challenge to appreciate “yummy vegan goodness” when you’re used to animal products and have no moral hang-ups. 

Vegans compare snippy omnivores at a vegan wedding to gentiles complaining about the lack of pork and shellfish at a kosher wedding. That’s not a fair comparison because the kosher wedding can still have chicken, fish, lamb or beef. Going without pork for a celebratory meal is not the same as going without meat all together. Sorry tempeh, tofu, TVP and seitan, but meat is tastier and more satisfying. 

On the other hand, vegans think meat is slavery! Yet meat eaters want vegans to cater to their immoral craving for dead animal chunks? Would you expect abolitionists getting married in the pre-Civil War South to have a few slaves working the reception just to appease their demanding racist relatives? Of course it’s an outrageous comparison, but that’s how many ethical vegans see it (your eyes can open to some truly offensive comparisons once you accept anti-speciesist logic). What upset meat eating guests at vegan weddings need to understand is that vegans think meat is evil. Not all of them would put it that way, but at the very least most vegans would classify meat as “very bad.” Why should they taint their joyous occasion because you think lasagna tastes better with a layer of ground up sentient beings? 

Ethical vegans are morally opposed to contributing to the death of animals. If they have a wedding and serve meat, well, they’re as blood-drenched as Carrie on prom night. Now that I think about it, I’d feel kind of bad if I went to a wedding between two vegans and there was meat. No doubt I’d eat it, but I wouldn’t like that the bride and groom were probably feeling like they’d let the animals down on their big day.   

Vegans rightly point out that it’s only one damn meal without meat. But then that logic backfires when meat eaters choose not to have a vegetarian option at their wedding. Except for vegans it’s worse, since that means one damn meal without food at all. Granted, in both scenarios it’s the vegans causing trouble in some way (to themselves in the case of the omnivore wedding and to omnivores in the case of their vegan wedding). So in a sense it’s always the vegans’ fault. 

Plus the “only one meal” argument does downplay how dreadful weddings can be if you have nothing to look forward to at the reception. Nobody really cares that two people are promising to stay together forever. Okay, if it’s your close friends or family members you do. But for many of the guests, weddings are nothing without food and alcohol. As the wedding approaches, they’re mostly thinking about gorging themselves and getting drunk. I know there are exceptions because I am one, but come on. Bad food is much worse at wedding.

Still. When vegans are getting married, you’ve got to let their morals come first. 

The last wedding I went to was a vegan wedding. I expected this because the two people getting married were vegan. However, they never at any point said “all the food would be vegan.” There was no talk of food at all beforehand. My guess was that it would be vegan, but I couldn’t be sure that their parents hadn’t pulled a meaty coup.

I was excited about the wedding no matter what, but the slight hope that there might be meat made me look forward to it even more. It was only once I got into the buffet line that I learned corpses hadn’t made the cut. I was disappointed, but there was a decent salad and I got full enough. It was about half an hour of meatless eating and then it was time to dance. 

The worst thing about a vegan wedding for meat eaters is all the time spent anticipating a lackluster meal. So vegans, keep your weddings vegan. Just don’t tell us beforehand. 

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For Rvnbrgj11, Meatless Monday leads to frustration and self-ruin. Judging by the end of her rant, that could be just what proponents of Meatless Monday are hoping for.

 

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Should Vegans Hate Meat Eaters?

MartinV: It’s true that some vegans insult meat eaters and even veggies. But people who care about non-humans understandably feel rage at the way humans treat them. Just like most people would feel rage if they heard a rapist or pedophile describing how much they enjoy what they do. Denouncing wrongdoers and insulting them is very unlikely to get them to change their ways but it is very difficult sometimes not to do so.

Huw MacDonald: I think that we should hate arrogant, cruel and heartless meat-eaters that, for example, hunt, fish or eat at KFC despite knowing the cruelty involved. People who say we, as vegetarians/vegans, are pointless and wrong are idiots! However, it’s not right to hate every meat-eater. The majority of people are good, honest people who are mostly unaware of the cruelty practises of the meat industry.

Juli F: I don’t believe that we should hate/dislike the meat eaters, and they shouldn’t hate us. Just because we have a heart and care about animals as much as we do doesn’t give them a right to give us a hard time or rub it in our faces. … It’s not our fault they’re so heartless.

Tori L: We agree that meat *is* murder? And thus, if others are eating meat, don’t we have an ethical responsibility to speak out? i mean, you would speak out if you saw a person murdered, correct? in the words of reverend doctor martin luther king, “our lives begin to end the day we become silent about things that matter.” and in the words of the amazing film Swing Kids, “If those of us who have a voice do not raise it in outrage at the treatment of our fellow human beings, we will have collaborated in their doom.” i think that also applies to animals. am i saying we should hate meat-eaters? no. but i don’t universally hate murderers either- because that doesn’t accomplish anything.

Nate Morey: I personally have tried not to hate people for eating meat but have you ever talked to them about it? if you talk to them, i mean REALLY talk to them, there is NO WAY you could not hate them. ALL — not most — ALL people who eat meat and do not need it (and you only need it if you’re poor and it’s the only choice, no other reason is good enough) to live, are heartless morons. Now don’t think of me as bad, i’m not, but it’s hard for me to feel ANY compassion for people who do not return the favor. honestly as an example if someone needs my blood to live and ate meat… i would let them die. think about it, if they live they will cause many animals to die. and i think an animal is worth more than a stupid self indulging meat eater any day.

Seth Mair: Hate that they are fascist and support exploitation of animals. Love whatever part of them you can. It is hard for me to handle.

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So I Married Someone Who Calls Me “Murderer”

İlk Bahar: Recently I’ve found myself in a dilemma. A dilemma that had made me feel so ill. I have met someone who is a Vegan. We are very similar and we seem to get along so fine. But the only difference that we have is that he is a Vegan and I am once or twice a week meat eater. …

What I don’t like about him is the way he is going on about it. He is very clear-cut about this subject. He says he cannot kiss someone who has eaten meat, the thought will just make him feel ill, and his morals will be in the way of his love. He says he does not want me to eat meat in front of him, but he says he’ll socialize with me even if there is meat served on the table or go to family meals. …

I respect him totally, but he imposes on me what he believes. He says that he is showing me the truth to peace and love, but he is doing this by saying “You’re like the other meat eaters, you exploit animals, you’re one of those murderers and if you’re going to be with me, you’ll need to choose.” …This makes me feel so bad and horrible inside, and I ask myself, is this right what he is saying, and how he is saying it?

Jessica F: Wow. This post made me cry. I’m in a similar situation.

My husband and I have been married for six years and have three children together. He is a raw-vegan and I am a recent vegan back to vegetarian. When we met, he was just starting to become vegan and i was an omnivore. I would explore vegan food with him and keep an open mind about it and cook vegan meals for us. I always struggled with trying to go vegan. Even after we had our first two children and they were eating vegan, I still struggled. After the birth of my third child, I went vegan and remained that way for two years, until he went raw. It’s been so FREAKING difficult with him. Just as I was becoming acclimated to a new way of eating, he went and decided to eat some other way.

I found it hard to continue to eating vegan-ly since he was no longer eating the same things we once enjoyed together. I have gone back to eating dairy and eggs. I have had a piece of fish here and there. He knows this and he is very rude to me and our children when we eat dairy. He will claim that the dairy is giving our children behavioral issues. He will ask me how i like my cow puss. He knows that I struggle with this, but he is so mean about it. I don’t understand why he can’t accept me for who I am, that being vegan, vegetarian, whatever. I have never asked him to change anything about himself. It’s to the point now I would rather lie to him about what I eat than tell him the truth because he looks down his nose at me.

I don’t know what to do. Is this a salvageable relationship?

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Vegans Vs. The World

AshleyKimball: I wake up in the morning sometimes and “forget” the world isn’t vegan.  Then I go ANYWHERE and try to do my vegan stuff and get looked at cock-eyed, then remember how crappy the world can be. 

Linda: Once your eyes are opened, the inhumanity humans display in the supermarket is overwhelming.

BCSH: For a long time I’ve wanted to create my own nation. Preferably on an island. A vegan nation. A cruelty free nation where all beings are equal in terms of compassion. … Sometimes I hate the world and think there’s no hope for humanity. Sometimes I hate humanity. But I’m forever the optimist.

ShaolinBunny: I know exactly how you feel. I’m just waiting for my *real* people/family to come pick me up off earth and take me home—my aliens from another benevolent planet far far away in the universe where beings treat each other and their planet with pure kindness and love. Where are they, dammit?!!! I’ve been waiting forever! Why haven’t I been beamed up and transported home, yet? And why have they abandoned me here to dwell among the millions of a**holes who don’t give a crap about anything?!!!

Compassionate Vegetarian: Humans are bastards. It’s as simple as that. Fuck human suffering. They inflict so much misery and atrocities upon absolutely innocent animals that I find it impossible to feel pity or sadness for human tragedy. Fuck humans. Animal rights and welfare are all that concern me.

Carl Hiaasen Rules: Compassionate Vegetarian, I agree with you five billion percent. Where the hell is that damned pandemic scientists keep yapping about??? Even if it kills me in the process, I’ll at least die knowing the earth has shaken off a good chunk of the parasitic human race.

Kimberlily1983: I have days like that too, when I’m disgusted by people. It’s so hard, but I tell myself that not getting past that anger in some cases harms the animals more, because it shuts people off to the message I’m trying to spread. Sometimes I feel like I’m living a lie, trying to tone down my message so as to not turn people off from the beginning. I can’t start with something like, “If you were a good person, you wouldn’t put them through that, just so you can have your taste of bacon, or whatever it is.” But it’s often what I’m thinking.

faunablues: At the moment, I’m more or less at peace with family and friends around me who haven’t chosen to be vegan or vegetarian. It helps to think of them as future vegans…

CableRock: Does every one of the almost 7 billion people on this earth deserve better treatment than any other species? Regardless of the fact that it is humans and only humans who are full of malice and hate and greed and murder. Why do you put our species as a whole on a pedestal? Every other animal has been living in balance with the earth, and then we come in and totally fuck the entire planet up. It’s not that I have a heightened sense of caring for animals, it’s just that I do not blindly value human life like some of you do. Most humans are ignorant worthless piles of meat and the world would benefit without them. People are responsible for their own suffering, as well as the suffering of probably every other animal on the planet. Fuck them all.

KKJ: I hate people, and yes, I hate being a person. I am ashamed of what species I happened to be born into. … Yes dear, I can be for animals, excluding those of the human type. I do not care who gets killed in a car wreck, or falls from a bridge, or rather my favorite, killed by a wild animal because they wanted to get a “better” picture of that animal and got too close. I absolutely celebrate hunting accidents and encourage everyone to just kill every other person they get the chance to kill. I think it is great, because it is rewarding to see that my idea of humans is correct and validates my reasoning for despising them in the first place. Humans are and always have been selfish, greedy, fearful, jealous, angry and having no compassion for anything other than their own personal desires… I cannot see why others can not see this in your face fact. I guess it harms the ego of even the most active of activist to think they are so awful.

Vegan Bug: I’ve found that over the summer I have spent most of my waking hours reading over animal rights blogs, books, news reports, and anything else I can get my hands on. Sometimes there are good stories to be found, heartwarming stories of compassion. But more often then not, harmful legislation is being passed, bastardly humans are doing evil things to animals, or some idiotic moron actually tries to convince us that humans are naturally better then animals. What I’m saying is that I found I needed to step back from the movement for a little while and somehow try to restore my faith in humanity.

TKitty96: Sorry, but I hold no hope for humanity.  I gave that up long ago.  I still do what I can to ease suffering, and I am still sometimes appalled by the things that others do.  I am no longer surprised by them, though.  That’s sad.

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When Veganism is Not Symbolic

A few weeks ago I wrote that veganism was nothing but a symbolic act. That inspired a retort from vegan dietitian Jack Norris, who quoted a paper called Expected Utility, Contributory Causation, and Vegetarianism. In it, Jason Gaverick Matheny (founder of New Harvest, a company developing lab-grown meat) argues in sciencey prose that a single vegetarian’s meat abstinence could lead to fewer animals being raised for food:

Since there are 20 million customers per threshold unit, and only one of these customers will actually complete the unit of which his or her purchase is a part, the probability of my completing a unit is one in 20 million. That means by buying meat I have a one-in-20 million chance of affecting the production and slaughter of one billion animals.

Hey, Kevin Costner decided a presidential election with his one vote in Swing Vote, so it could happen. It probably won’t, but Matheny believes that since you cannot be 100 percent sure you don’t make a difference, you can’t argue against vegetarianism on the grounds that it’s never effective on an individual level. So I guess I was wrong.

Here is what I said:

Plenty of meat eaters care about the ethics of food, even though vegans scoff at the idea of ethical animal killing. In my case, when I grocery shop, I buy mostly organ meats. And when I go to a restaurant, I look for the organ option the way a vegan looks for the vegan option. I do this because I think fewer animals will need to be raised and killed if more of the animal parts are used. In that sense, I am accomplishing exactly what vegans are — fewer animals are being born. (But I recognize that my consumer choices are almost totally insignificant in this regard; like veganism, this is a symbolic gesture).

If Matheny’s findings are correct, I should have been less definitive. It would have been more accurate to say “like veganism, this is all but a symbolic gesture.” The 1-in-20-million figure means that veganism technically isn’t pure symbolism, but with odds like that, calling yourself an animal liberator for avoiding animal products would be like someone calling themselves a millionaire for buying a lottery ticket.

Except you know when you lose the lottery. As Matheny points out, you can’t confirm whether or not you’re the one to cast the deciding vote against meat. That is what allows vegans to operate under the delusion that they are making a difference, even though they almost certainly are not.

And you can drop the “almost certainly” if a vegan’s goal is to improve life for existing animals. Unless they engage in direct action like freeing animals or arson, the most vegans can hope to do is reduce meat demand enough that farmers breed fewer animals into existence (farmers do not release animals when demand for meat goes down). This does absolutely nothing to address the problems of factory farming, which means ethical omnivores have vegans beat as far as improving animal lives.

But even if a vegan is satisfied with the goal of bringing fewer farm animals into the world, there is no perceived difference in animal numbers or the environment that a vegan can attribute to themselves. From the point of view of an individual vegan, veganism might as well be symbolic, even if 1 out of 20 million times it isn’t.

And then there are cases where veganism is overtly symbolic, like not eating animal products even when there is no possibility of stimulating demand for them. It’s not always possible to know when this is the case, but turning down meat even though it’s about to be thrown out is an obvious one. Eating grains rather than eating the small animals killed to grow and harvest grains is pointless. So is getting rid of non-vegan clothes or furniture that you had from before you were vegan, or not eating eggs from well-treated chickens (chickens aren’t aware of their property rights to those eggs, and you’re not going to bring any male chicks back to life). Of course avoiding oysters is symbolic as hell. 

But there are plenty of non-symbolic aspects to veganism too, some of which Norris and Matheny failed to note. The problem is, the good non-symbolic stuff is mostly abstract and indiscernible, whereas the bad non-symbolic stuff is what really counts.

Positive Ways Veganism is Not Symbolic (complete)

* You theoretically might be the person who leads to a decrease in the number of animals raised for food, though you will never know this.

* Avoiding the guilt of participating in what is seen as an immoral activity. 

* Stimulating a market for new kinds of processed foods. Vegans can gauge their progress by the number of packaged products with a green “V” on them.

However, the most dramatic effect that veganism has is on vegans and the people around them, not animals or the environment — and that effect is mostly negative.

Negative Ways Veganism Is Not Symbolic (abridged)

* Greater risk for nutritional imbalances. Humans are omnivores, which means that a vegan diet is not optimal for us. So unless vegans stay current on nutrient recommendations, deficiencies may creep in. Even if they do everything vegan authorities tell them to do, that might not help, since people are different and not everything is known about nutrition.

* Less delicious food. But this one is mitigated by the lowered culinary standards that vegans accept over time.

* Guilt. The main point of veganism is to avoid the guilt of intentionally participating in the suffering of animals, but vegans often discover new sources of guilt, especially if there is an environmental component to their veganism. Radically modifying your diet in response to a perceived injustice, even though it seems to accomplish nothing, opens yourself up to feeling responsible for other problems you can do nothing about (the existence of plastic, for instance). Attempting to save the world through personal consumption habits can develop into eco-neurosis.

* Encouraging obsessive tendencies. It’s not enough for vegans to avoid large chunks of meat or cheese. They have to check every label and interrogate waiters to make sure small amounts of animal products don’t slip into their food. The psychological aversion to animal products that goes along with this can make vegans feel ill if they find out something they ate had animal products in it.

* Alienation. Hunger from lack of vegan food or revulsion at the presence of non-vegan food makes it harder for vegans to enjoy social situations and special events. Sometimes the inconvenience is daunting enough to make vegans stay home.

But vegan alienation goes deeper than this. Book titles like Vegan Freak: Being Vegan in a Non-Vegan World and Living Among Meat Eaters: The Vegetarian’s Survival Handbook provide some indication of how alone vegans feel in their sanity. In his blog entry called Hoodlum Omnivores, David Horton writes:

Today, when plant-based foods are known to be so perfect for us, the whole thing of farming and killing animals seems so obviously crazy. Vegans probably feel that the worst trouble for us is in reminding ourselves we live as fearlessly as we do amongst such a big bunch of hoodlums. These ‘hoodlum’, weird-habited humans comprise around 99% of all humans on the planet.

Vegans can still be friends with that 99 percent of us, but they must do so despite our weird and murderous ways, which is rife with potential for cognitive dissonance. Veganism makes vegans judge us even if they aren’t normally judgmental people. As George Dvorsky explains in Meat Eaters Are Bad People, veganism is not just a personal decision with no implications for anyone else. If meat is wrong, that applies to everyone.

People often think that vegans are high on moral superiority, but that’s only sometimes true. It’s not fun to think that 99 percent of the world’s humans are hoodlums… it’s depressing! Naturally this gives many vegans a dim view of humanity, and what human wants to have that?

Veganism can also compromise friendships in the other direction — omnivores don’t always want to spend time with people who think they are immoral or evil. Just as vegans prefer not to date meat eaters, sometimes the feeling is mutual.

And do you really want to accept a philosophy that will have you equating animal use with human slavery?

So no, veganism is not only symbolic. To be more precise, I should have said that the positive effects of veganism are largely symbolic. Unfortunately, the negative aspects of veganism are a lot more real. Your odds of affecting animal production with your vegan diet are slim; the odds of making your own life and the lives of those around you more difficult and unpleasant are much better.

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